Ok after another terabyte of audio files, I feel confident to say that it's currently impossible to overcome physical latency within ableton if you want to use that input internally. (ie: if you have a hardware sequencer, your plugins will always be out of sync by the amount of physical latency with ableton plugins) I made a test project for ableton but also found some old forum threads that made me not hopeful they will fix things. BitWig: This was the final straw, it took 10 minutes to sync my synth and I've even got the midicake synced sending midi through bitwig out to virus and back and it's all perfectly locked in. Neither device has ever been tighter timing wise. And you can change the tempo without your project falling apart lol Minimize Latency: Seek to minimize latency in ableton, you will never compensate it, so minimize for best results Return Tracks: These are a good way to guarantee plugins sync to main clock, they will also reveal the implicit issue in ableton software. Your audio will be late by the amount of physical latency, but the plugin clocks will be on time and for me this is better. Ext Inst / Ext Audio: The delays on these devices does not translate to 'wait 12ms for this audio', ableton reads this as 'the audio is already coming 12ms ago'. This means all subsequent plugin clocks in the chain shift forward by that amount. In this manner, the gap between your external gear and plugins will never be resolved, you will never be able to bridge the gap between plugin clocks and your external gear. Early Midi If your latency / DEC is over 10ms you'll likely want to manually manage sending midi early to compensate. Instead of adding a delay buffer, drag the start of your clips in by that amount (clipping the first notes) and from there you can use clips as normal although dropping the first beat if it is before the start

Ableton has been giving me nothing, so I made an explanation that maybe is helpful for others to see the issue. Basically Total-Latency needs to be Physical-Latency+Internal-Latency Ableton already calculates this for tracks, so by using a device in the track the Internal-Latency is automatically added and we only have to adjust for Physical-Latency Basically Ableton needs to add: let latencyChange = new - orig clockSyncDelay = clockSyncDelay + latencyChange

regarding latch stuff, if it's easy to add per track, that might be even better, but I wouldn't mind a global setting! maybe it also pairs with a 'retrigger' option. My reference for this behavior is cthulhu when retrigger and latch are both off

thanks for the thoughtful responses to all of these, one small thing I think I didn't explain well the rhythm entry ux proposal: I meant that the buttons would affect the vertical value of each step in the rhythm (I believe there's 9 but I might've miscounted), I thought 0-8 could be the 9 steps so knob controls horizontally the current step for editing (as currently), but in addition to up/down to control velocity, we could quickly enter velocities per step with the 8 button row tying isn't really solved with this, but thought it would really speed up new rhythms! just some wishlist things, generally super happy with the existing featureset.. always excited to see what you're cooking up!

Here's some things I've thought about while using midicake! Midicake Wishlist * latch optional while playing  * instead of retaining the last chord, only play while notes are held down * pattern doesn't start on 1 with chord, but rather runs with song * quick edit mode for rhythm's * I thought it might be nice if when editing a rhythm if the ux for binaries could be utilized for a quicker entry * I believe there are 8 levels from 0 to max velocity per step when editing rhythms, so the 8 buttons that are used to work with binary triggers could represent this and allow the user to use the right hand on the knob and the left hand quickly punching out velocities * (already really impressed by the additional binary functionality, didn't expect such a major capability improvement from an update) * sub group editing * would love if I could select ie: tracks 1 and 2 as opposed to only one or all * backup/librarian * I one time accidentally stumbled on a website that seemed to be some kind of midicake diagnostic/editor, not sure if this is something in the pipeline. * copy between banks would be great * modulator value conversions * Converting the modulation % to the value they're modulating would be great, although not sure the amount of dev work required.  * For Example, when modulating note offset I tend to do one of the square waves that are fully up or down and adjust the boundaries before moving to my goal modulation shape.. this works fine, but sometimes when editing especially it's easy to get lost where if I could see the value it would be easier to quickly logic where I need to move things. * In liu of this, I thought perhaps just a table pointing out the modulation percentage to value conversions. (If I have time on the right day I'll put this together)

Some Updates: I don't notice any memory lagging on subsequent projects so I think the issue was elsewhere. Woop! Adding as a template to new projects I have to select midicake again in the Clock UI Additionally with new projects, track delays seem to reset for me, so make sure upon adding a preset track group or however to reassign midicake as clock's out, and update track delays. Swing: Clock swing seems to work and sounds ok, anything past 3/4 starts to sound weird and more like clock jumps than swing. (I noticed the same on other devices, it seems like the higher values trip things up) Clock Fills: Midicake responds to clock fills, but it's not the smoothest thing ever. I didn't experiment too deeply with variations to aim for something better. Was mostly checking if they were generally functional which yes :) (the oxi one responds really well to them, but need to evaluate if it's my patterns vs the device, I tend to have more complex things on cake)

Hey, I have some updates on this issue: Patch Change: Retrigger (I'd like to explore non-stop things but it's easier to lock things in and hear when things are out of sync with retrigger) I am using the setup I described in my latency post with Clock (m4l) in ableton and if I send program changes via ableton with the 1000smpl lead time everything comes in perfectly synced up. If however using this setup and disabling PC from ableton, I cue the pattern change manually I get a lot of shifting that doesn't correct itself. I'll see if I can get a quick recording example of manual changing vs triggering in ableton to demonstrate

very welcome! I figured I owed you guys after all the support requests haha.. I was able to play with this over an evening and feeling really positive about it! I can finally have a midicake preset/template :) I left ableton cycling for 20-40 mins just triggering program changes on midicake and the drums: both stayed locked in without any resets the whole time. Harmony as well, cake always came in together with the others. A bit more jitter vs ableton's clock, but nothing really noticeable to my ears that would make it feel loose. I was even able to put enough pressure on the system where the ableton gui was barely functional (lagging input by 2-10s) and even in that state audio came through strong and changes always came in together across devices. I never had to trigger a reset :) Small Caveats: Part of the pressure might be a memory leak or something in Clock over time. Need to make another project to see how it goes. (It might also have been the massive collection midi/audio files I accumulated while testing) Undo Clogging: Clock clogs up undo history while transport is running, I contacted the dev but just to be aware of if you're trying to a/b things while playing Fun Bonuses: Instant half/double times There's some clock fills that I don't understand but I think worked with cake. I will test it later and see

Since my original post I've found a rather nice M4L device called Clock. This allows you to setup the timing delays for MidiCake while leaving 'Delay Compensation' enabled and you can freely add limiters without requiring clock shifts. I get a bit more tempo wobble now, but I'd much rather have that than constantly chase sync every time I work on the project. It also has nice options for hot resyncing to keep things locked in. Here's my current config: Ableton Global Options: Delay Compensation: YES Reduced Latency When Monitoring: NO Midi Config: MidiCake Arp - Sync: NO Clock Track: Add Clock device, set output to midicake. Keep Latency: Enable for Cake Input Tracks. That was all it took for me to get arp tracking consistently. However, the one final little piece was getting harmonies to send out early to the cake. Harmony Sync on 1: Clock has a sample shifter, so I just sent the cake 1000smpls into the future, and set it's imput track back -1000smpls. Add all the limiters you want and you don't need to reconfigure cake. WARNING: The image was missing a step when I tried to go back and track photos. The Harmony track in the photo will NOT work. You need to send to midicake via External Instrument. (Just drop it in that track, and don't configure an audio input) Device: https://nukemodular.gumroad.com/l/qjpEU https://maxforlive.com/library/device/6651/clock

Ok, I have it set to retrigger right now wanting new patterns to start on 1, one follow up, would -16 beat sequences have any affect on things? I thought maybe if it was going by end of current sequence as opposed to the bar that might affect things or increase computation load. There is also a regular flux in tempo when following on beat 4 and it feels maybe like I'm slamming a lot of data into it right when it's computing that and the program change and it briefly loses the downbeat. I also setup the arp as a bit of a hub for the moment for usb/analog links with midi thru which I recall saying it was a software implementation. Is there a preferred input for tempo following that arp is best in? I thought if overloading was the issue it might help to have some menu config defining inputs similar to outputs. Something like USB -> CLK ONLY. I don't know if this would help things in the end, just a thought :) I'll try cueing the chords earlier, I need to think about how to organize that for live things

Host works for the first time for me ever after updating to the latest 425 firmware. Might be worth double checking this now

Hey, so unfortunately the oxi seems fried, I was hoping some restarts or bluetooth updates could save her but the usb is no longer functional except for power. Unfortunately all usb communication is dead, and it seems to have power only. On my mac it doesn't even show that something is plugged into the usb. I also confirmed with midimate that no traffic is outgoing, and nothing coming in makes it to the oxi :(

So after getting another chance it seems ableton is mostly ok as long as the arp is follower not leader so this is fine for my purposes, the leader was just very briefly setting up. I'm still not sure what could have happened to the oxi, it can draw power from my computer but even that doesn't show up on connections on the system report (incl when I boot oxi in safe mode). I don't know how to recreate this locked usb mode that the midicake was in when it was somehow blocking things, my guess is that it was something to do with my presets prior or sth. in this locked state, midicake was behaving exactly as the oxi is now, it wouldn't show up in system reports, could get power, but no midi was able to come in or out Are there any really low level system messages that are exchanged from teensy that maybe somehow didn't make it to the right device? I haven't worked with too many physical protocols like usb so I'm not sure what sort of things might back up the pipes or block things. My thinking is like a network call that maybe started a message protocol but left it unfinished? This could explain the multiple devices getting blocked by oxi after plugging in, maybe combined with oxi missing a resetIfIncomplete somewhere midicake and ableton move seemed able to shake off the odd state but the oxi persists. I'm going to try a full battery drain to see if maybe that triggers some additional start up procedures on a good note, the new arrow mode is great and makes it easier to recreate lost things!!!! also excited to delve into the new modulation possibilities even through all of my midicake issues I still push through because the device is so interesting!

some things to add: ableton latest crashes on both firmwares, it might be something with follow mode, I think ableton as leader is working better it seems that it also somehow fried my oxi one usb port (and ableton move) and it no longer functions or connects to any device even in reboot mode after a factory reset. I plugged it in because the midi monitor on the oxi is a really reliable place to debug usb stuff, and now it seems that the oxi is acting how the midicake did before I reset the midicake. I know that the oxi said there is some risk to plugging non-music devices in, so I'm wondering if there's something in the usb protocol that's not meshing with other systems. (a similar issue to sometimes in the past plugging monitors into things could mess things up internally.) it is able to send usb power out, so the physical port is ok, but it no longer receives or sends any midi data over usb. confirmed with my keyboard, a midimake ex cable, two computers I also tried to plug the midicake to an ableton move and it caused that usb port to no longer function as leader or follower to any other devices. This one was luckily fixed without a factory reset, somehow plugging my keyboard in unlocked it and everything then worked with other devices as normal. not sure if the keyboard could have maybe finished the second half of some protocols that were blocking if you have any tips for the oxi, right now it's seeming like I don't have any options, there is a ble way to update, but resets and safe mode also don't connect to anything so hoping there's a pro tip

hey, I just updated to the latest firmware and I wanted to double check that the fix you sent me got merged in :) I am having a lot of issues with it and I'm getting ableton crashes again. after the update it would connect to things, but it wouldn't send or receive any midi notes.. except, if I hit the 'stop' button a bunch on the midicake I would hear a high pitch sound like that was somehow sending a midi note I fixed this with a 'factory reset' so lost some things but very recoverable unfortunately something in there is causing the latest LIVE to crash pretty immediately with just an empty project trying to see if midi in is coming through. it happened a few times right in a row so I'm not sure what to do I could workaround with midi cables but I really like to just sit with my laptop sometimes and have one cable I downgraded back to the firmware you sent before for now, but I haven't retested with this version yet on the most recent ableton update, so it might be something that changed on their end

FIXED AND WORKING NO PROBLEMS :) Hey, just wanted to let you know that the firmware you sent me has resolved all of the problems I was having and I haven't had another issue with ableton since.. buuuttt.. Yesterday I finally had a long stretch of time to try again with the MRCC and that also had no problems for hours, no crash! Thank you thank you thank you for fixing these! I love the midicake but I was really getting blocked by this and I'm really happy I can use the cake in my setups again :) it's the only device I want everywhere! Also, I realized when testing the MRCC why I double tap stop buttons so much– my virus has a bad habit of notes getting stuck and the panic buttons are usually sort of far, but double-stop kills them all

one of my favorite features of midicake is it's fantastic external midi control! maybe try mapping out delay and set it on a longer automation than 32 bars for extra steve reichiness. alternatively I thought maybe if you want to keep it on cake something like 1/2 or 1/4 clock might extend the phasing so it slides in more subtly. I think I like cake more for parallel variants that divert less by phasing and more by variants than strictly phasing where I think it might be easier in a daw to use a millisecond delay on the channel in question to get the best resolution. (if you're in ableton, the mfa lfo is free and has a longer potential cycle than the official lfo)

Hey, I haven't had a chance yet to test again with MRCC or Digitone. I tend to setup little workspaces for a bit and want to stick with things until I finish up. With that said, I've been running intermittently for a couple weeks and NO CRASHES WHOOP WHOOP! (actually lots of them, but none of them were cake!) Thanks so much! I will try to get to the mrcc as soon as I can!

Tried it last night and feeling a lot better on ableton! Serum is being cranky now, but midi and cake seem to be rocking :) I should be able to try it also with mrcc and digitone later in the weekend or next week to see if those ones are fixed with this also! Thanks a ton for this one, really appreciate it!!

Finishing some work stuff and then I'll install the firmware and try it out, but I can already tell that this is gonna help!